Comments on: Java Killed The Innovation Of Computer Languages http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/ Down To The Bone Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:17:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: BA http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3544 Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:20:45 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3544 <p>Interesting article. </p> <p>I was a traditional programmer for many years and switched over to using BizTalk as a macro-level programming environment and plugged in traditional code when it was needed.</p> <p>Food for thought: are we focused too much on the next programming language and ignoring the innovations that messaging based infrastructures are providing?</p> Interesting article.

I was a traditional programmer for many years and switched over to using BizTalk as a macro-level programming environment and plugged in traditional code when it was needed.

Food for thought: are we focused too much on the next programming language and ignoring the innovations that messaging based infrastructures are providing?

]]> by: archana http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3540 Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:26:49 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3540 <p>hi everyone,</p> <p>I finished my engg in computerscience recently(2005),and i was in a dilemma whether to choose java field or .net field,after reading these responses i have decided to enter into the java world....what do you'll say did i take a wise decision ? kindly help me....</p> hi everyone,

I finished my engg in computerscience recently(2005),and i was in a dilemma whether to choose java field or .net field,after reading these responses i have decided to enter into the java world….what do you’ll say did i take a wise decision ? kindly help me….

]]> by: Gopi Nathan http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3530 Tue, 03 Jan 2006 14:27:45 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3530 <p>In the original paper on Java in 1995 we read "... It started as a part of a larger project to develop advanced software for consumer electronics. These are small reliable portable distributed real-time embedded systems. When we started the project, we intended to use C++, but we encountered a number of problems. "</p> <p>Compared to C ++, it was an easy language, easier to use since Sun gave a free SDK to 'compile' and test the programs. </p> <p>Though Web and Java bacame a powerful and easy-to-use combination, things got messy when we had to run real production applications. Applets were impressive to start with but soon they were useful only for simple processing, games, simulations etc. Java was expanded into tackling complex issues of transaction processing with the introduction of Server side code like Servlet and JSP and then EJBs...</p> <p>JDBC mimicked ODBC to give database support, but the language was not designed for transaction processing. Persistence with respect to databases were implemented in a questionable way... Recently a Java meeting said CMP never worked... derecommended Entity Beans.. someone said Hibernate should replaces EJB... </p> <p>Already there is talk about ' the next language'...</p> <p>Is Java a language or a platform? Are we mixing up things here? Is there overuse of object-oriented technology? </p> <p>Tailpiece: Sun has been giving SDK free for 10 years now. But it's really funny that SDK comes without a simple editor for Java! One has to depend upon notepad or other editors and run everything from command prompt even for a simple 'Hello World!'! Why didn't Sun think the absurdity of switching over to DOS prompt, when the language and platform we talk about is so advanced?</p> In the original paper on Java in 1995 we read “… It started as a part of a larger project to develop advanced software for consumer electronics. These are small reliable portable distributed real-time embedded systems. When we started the project, we intended to use C++, but we encountered a number of problems. “

Compared to C ++, it was an easy language, easier to use since Sun gave a free SDK to ‘compile’ and test the programs.

Though Web and Java bacame a powerful and easy-to-use combination, things got messy when we had to run real production applications. Applets were impressive to start with but soon they were useful only for simple processing, games, simulations etc. Java was expanded into tackling complex issues of transaction processing with the introduction of Server side code like Servlet and JSP and then EJBs…

JDBC mimicked ODBC to give database support, but the language was not designed for transaction processing. Persistence with respect to databases were implemented in a questionable way… Recently a Java meeting said CMP never worked… derecommended Entity Beans.. someone said Hibernate should replaces EJB…

Already there is talk about ‘ the next language’…

Is Java a language or a platform? Are we mixing up things here? Is there overuse of object-oriented technology?

Tailpiece: Sun has been giving SDK free for 10 years now. But it’s really funny that SDK comes without a simple editor for Java! One has to depend upon notepad or other editors and run everything from command prompt even for a simple ‘Hello World!’! Why didn’t Sun think the absurdity of switching over to DOS prompt, when the language and platform we talk about is so advanced?

]]> by: Mr. Bill http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3529 Tue, 03 Jan 2006 06:09:16 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3529 <p>I think that, having watched the progression of hardware and software for thirty years, innovation is not dead. The ratio of lemmings to innovators has changed dramatically. In the "early days" you had to invent damn near everything. Now, one can snap a few components together in an afternoon and have a reasonable solution to a small problem. That, in itself, is an evolution. When high level languages first appeared the same comments were bandied about. Java is rehashed ideas (UCSD p-Code anybody) implemented in pseudo C++ / smalltalk. Does that make it bad? No. Not in my mind. It is a tool. Some minds can build great things with the simplest of tools. Others struggle to achieve anything with fantastic tools. The shear volume of stuff being generated today keeps us from seeing the innovations that are happening. The signal to noise ratio is getting bad.</p> I think that, having watched the progression of hardware and software for thirty years, innovation is not dead. The ratio of lemmings to innovators has changed dramatically. In the “early days” you had to invent damn near everything. Now, one can snap a few components together in an afternoon and have a reasonable solution to a small problem. That, in itself, is an evolution. When high level languages first appeared the same comments were bandied about. Java is rehashed ideas (UCSD p-Code anybody) implemented in pseudo C++ / smalltalk. Does that make it bad? No. Not in my mind. It is a tool. Some minds can build great things with the simplest of tools. Others struggle to achieve anything with fantastic tools. The shear volume of stuff being generated today keeps us from seeing the innovations that are happening. The signal to noise ratio is getting bad.

]]> by: Shalabh http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3525 Sat, 31 Dec 2005 03:31:17 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3525 <p>The next worthy innovoation would be simplification of the 1000s of layers of abstraction that computers have accumulated. This might mean that general purpoose languages may disappear completely from application development, being replaced by domain specific languages. </p> <p>Microsoft (software factories) and JetBrains (MPS) are moving towards that direction, but taking the wrong approach, IMO, by adding another layer of complex concepts, instead of reducing the number of concepts.</p> The next worthy innovoation would be simplification of the 1000s of layers of abstraction that computers have accumulated. This might mean that general purpoose languages may disappear completely from application development, being replaced by domain specific languages.

Microsoft (software factories) and JetBrains (MPS) are moving towards that direction, but taking the wrong approach, IMO, by adding another layer of complex concepts, instead of reducing the number of concepts.

]]> by: widhiartha http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3522 Tue, 27 Dec 2005 01:53:34 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3522 <p>Perhaps, if we want to create completely new innovation of programming language, we have to start from blank paper again and create design which is far away from our technology now.</p> <p>As long as we use current paradigm like object-oriented, we still depend on existing programming language such as Java.</p> <p>My point is we need new technique/approach/paradigm before we are able to create new innovation of programming language for implementing it.</p> <p>Regards</p> Perhaps, if we want to create completely new innovation of programming language, we have to start from blank paper again and create design which is far away from our technology now.

As long as we use current paradigm like object-oriented, we still depend on existing programming language such as Java.

My point is we need new technique/approach/paradigm before we are able to create new innovation of programming language for implementing it.

Regards

]]> by: jw http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3521 Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:59:27 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3521 <p>There are dozens of languages that satisfy those requirements, many of which existed well before Java. However, Java became famous because it had two things they didn't:</p> <ol> <li>Java copies the core syntax of C++</li> <li>A multi-billion dollar corporation promoting it</li> </ol> <p>C# has both of those things and fixes a number of Java's mistakes too. Like Java, C# copies features from its predecessors and is not innovative. However, it has a design team that looks past 1974, so I think C# will be the next big marketing success, bringing features like type inferencing to the mainstream.</p> There are dozens of languages that satisfy those requirements, many of which existed well before Java. However, Java became famous because it had two things they didn’t:

  1. Java copies the core syntax of C++
  2. A multi-billion dollar corporation promoting it

C# has both of those things and fixes a number of Java’s mistakes too. Like Java, C# copies features from its predecessors and is not innovative. However, it has a design team that looks past 1974, so I think C# will be the next big marketing success, bringing features like type inferencing to the mainstream.

]]> by: R.S.Ramaswamy http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3520 Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:22:01 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3520 <p>Hello! An Enterprise-level language should be a compiled language. It should be Object-Oriented. It should have automatic garbage collection. It should be safe. Java &#38; C# satisfy these requirements. But, C# is just a copy of Java. Java is truly platform agnostic. For these reasons, Java is justly famous. There is no challenge anywhere in the horizon. Regards.</p> Hello! An Enterprise-level language should be a compiled language. It should be Object-Oriented. It should have automatic garbage collection. It should be safe. Java & C# satisfy these requirements. But, C# is just a copy of Java. Java is truly platform agnostic. For these reasons, Java is justly famous. There is no challenge anywhere in the horizon. Regards.

]]> by: jw http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3518 Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:54:29 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3518 <p>"of agree with you, java is wonderfull, i think java is really inovative. that is the reason i can’t switch to any other laanguage so far, because i have the taste of java."</p> <p>What innovations did Java contribute? All of its main features were part of older languages:</p> <p>Garbage Collection: Lisp (1950s) Object-Orientation: Simula (1964) Byte-compilation and Virtual Machine: Pascal (1974) Threads: Concurrent Pascal (1974) Reflection: Lisp (1950s) Extensive API: Smalltalk (1969)</p> <p>Java also isn't the first language to combine those features; Smalltalk had them all in 1980.</p> <p>Java looks good if your prior experience is with C++, and it has made a contribution to programming languages. However, that contribution wasn't innovation but rather marketing. Java made garbage collection acceptable to most C/C++ programmers. It's also given programmers a taste of a few limited versions of dynamic features like reflection that have inspired them to go out and investigate dynamic languages like Python, Ruby, and Smalltalk.</p> “of agree with you, java is wonderfull, i think java is really inovative. that is the reason i can’t switch to any other laanguage so far, because i have the taste of java.”

What innovations did Java contribute? All of its main features were part of older languages:

Garbage Collection: Lisp (1950s) Object-Orientation: Simula (1964) Byte-compilation and Virtual Machine: Pascal (1974) Threads: Concurrent Pascal (1974) Reflection: Lisp (1950s) Extensive API: Smalltalk (1969)

Java also isn’t the first language to combine those features; Smalltalk had them all in 1980.

Java looks good if your prior experience is with C++, and it has made a contribution to programming languages. However, that contribution wasn’t innovation but rather marketing. Java made garbage collection acceptable to most C/C++ programmers. It’s also given programmers a taste of a few limited versions of dynamic features like reflection that have inspired them to go out and investigate dynamic languages like Python, Ruby, and Smalltalk.

]]> by: jw http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3517 Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:43:40 +0000 http://jonasboner.com/2005/12/19/java-killed-the-innovation-of-computer-languages/#comment-3517 <p>widhiartha, Smalltalk had more powerful IDEs than Eclipse before Java was created, so while a verbose language like Java may inspire programmers to use powerful IDEs, it clearly wasn't necessary for them to be created.</p> widhiartha, Smalltalk had more powerful IDEs than Eclipse before Java was created, so while a verbose language like Java may inspire programmers to use powerful IDEs, it clearly wasn’t necessary for them to be created.

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